Questions with love

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Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:52 am

I would like to raise a few topics that have caught my attention during the game, for discussion.

1) How are the results of battles (and everything really) calculated? If there is a specific set of rules and mechanics involved, would it be possible to share the results of these results, maybe in a private chat to each player who is involved? Transparency is only a positive thing after all.

2) Can we push the update for the Divine Points up to Monday? At the time of this writing, the Divine Orders have not been updated yet.. Often the strategies we plan for the week, are directly related to what we can actually and not just the 3 free orders. While I understand that the Elder Gods are busy people, I am sure that so are most of us as well and trying to plan communicate with other gods, organize strategies and type out our actions is time consuming.

Thanks
/N
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Charon on Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:43 am

1. There is a set of complicated rules that take into consideration many factors like the traits the involved races, the current events and conditions and some dice to represent the random factors that complement or undermine the flow of events. Truth be told most of the times things need to be eyeballed in a case by case basis, mainly depending on the general conditions and the structure of the civilisation orders. We take into consideration about sharing more information. However there are some factors that concern us such as the fact that one god has the power to learn about such outcomes. Forevermore, sharing results might cause more delays in the game.

2. I have to apologise for any inconvenience. Due to obligations and an out ag the blue fever there was a setback in our schedule. Divine Power table and map are up to date and we do everyrhing possible to avoid such setbacks in the future.

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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:30 pm

1. Hopefully this is up for discussion and if so, may I ask you to elaborate on the factors that concern you with a god knowing what mechanics influenced the outcome of his/her (and only those) specific actions?

Personally, I would be more than willing to accept a delay in the weekly procedures for this. If the delay is too large and the interest from other gods is too small, could such a request be available on demand?

I see far more benefits for all of us from this information being shared than with it remaining behind closed doors.

2. Hopefully you are feeling better, take care of yourself Wink
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Orabelle on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:40 pm

Not interested of the mechanics because it will be a pain for fathers to explain why something happened and many will argue with the result. Better leave it in the integrity of Fathers.
BUT i lt would be nice to have a help 'common sense' where mechanics of the game interfere with our wishes.

Get well soon ;-)
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Chloris on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:51 pm

Ι agree with Orabelle. Maybe a couple of information would be nice to know so we can improve out game, but no details. 
Get well
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:33 pm

This doesn't have to be a pain to explain anything and additionally, if the information is there for those of us who are interested in it, it doesn't force anyone else to read it Smile
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Charon on Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:37 pm

Nyeroth wrote:may I ask you to elaborate on the factors that concern you with a god knowing what mechanics influenced the outcome of his/her (and only those) specific actions?

No god has knowledge of the mechanics.
Orabelle represents the knowledge domain and as a power, the Knowledge Domain grants the ability to know events. Among these events are the outcomes of the rounds resolution (If there was an interference, if the command was misinterpreted or not). It wouldn't be fair to share information that a Domain was designed to exclusively gain.

Personaly your common sense should not be helped in any way. The story is a great source of feedback to improve your gameplay. Put your divine selves in your worshipper's shoes. Try to assume their perspective!

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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:19 pm

I am sorry, but I find this extremely unsafisfactory and unnecessarily complicating. There are numerous moments in the stories where things do not add up (clearly I am not talking about situations where foul play can be involved) and if we are depended on "eyeballing" for the outcome of our actions, we should at least be able to know what was eyeballed.
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Charon on Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:35 pm

Nyeroth wrote:I am sorry, but I find this extremely unsafisfactory and unnecessarily complicating. There are numerous moments in the stories where things do not add up (clearly I am not talking about situations where foul play can be involved) and if we are depended on "eyeballing" for the outcome of our actions, we should at least be able to know what was eyeballed.

Sadly what you call extremely unsatisfactory and unnecessarily complicating , is actually a way to keep things fair. Eyeballing no matter how bad it might sound is the only way to put some numbers in the mechanics without losing ones mind. Most of the relevant things that must be assessed were referenced in most topics by now. The structure of your orders, the length of your orders, your wording, have been mentioned in the rules and that you should consider them well. On the other hand some reasoning demands to include in any estimation the overall condition of the worshipers, their perspective towards their god, their expectations, the events of recent rounds, when was the last time the god contacted those worshipers. All of the above are estimated in a case by case basis to give a fair outcome that simulates the flow of events in the world. If you believe that things do not add up in the story you are free to ask for clarifications.

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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:00 am

Alright, I would like two specific clarifications then.

a) During the second week, we found out that the Time Benders were surprised by a terrible snowstorm. While it is a given that the Time Benders are a race that has an elemental vulnerability to ice, they were able to come out of their obstacle seemingly unscathed. How is that possible?
Were they just extremely lucky?

b) During the third week, we found out that the Seuralvaroths, a race which is quite literally created for this purpose, attempted to create some instability. While I can accept failure, how is it possible that a highly specialised race failed so badly that it was revealed who was behind their plannings? It is quite literally like Legolas shooting himself in the eye with his bow and arrow.
Were they just extremely unlucky?

Thanks
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Charon on Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:31 am

So here are your answers.

A) Nothing really indicates that they were surprised as far as the story reveals. However don't you think that unscathed is a quite inaccurate term for a race that got a significant reduction in population. As the story states they were packing to leave as the blizzard built up. Their vulneravility caused them a forced march, the haste to escape caused them an unprosperus hunt on the following round and you call it lucky? Or should we consider that vulnerability means anihilation. They faced the source of their vulnerability for 1/4 of a round and they payed the price. They left in haste in order not to be traped and due to gluttony their supplies are low. Is it really unscathed?

B) I am not certain what people mean whith terms like "specially designed for a purpose". Indeed there are races with all the advantages in a field of expertise, this does not mean every single member is devoted to exceed in this specialty not that the creature has any insight in your aspirations at the moment of their creation.
In any way, let us see the case of the Seuralvaroths. They are a quite capable race with barely 9 months of experience. It is reasonable to make some overthinking and some of these attempts are failed. Now keeping in mind that certain castes are targeted as terrorists in the general turmoil some Seuralvaroths are caught inthe crossfire because they were pretending to be members of these castes. Turmoil implies violent escalation that can realy be a good reason for a Seuralvaroth to be unmasked. First of all they are tiny and physically deficient creatures pretending to be medium physically supperior, even magic cannot conceal such differences when things get physical. Second the party assuming the false idenrity were obviously unprepared to be accused of terrorism and abandoning their disguise is a solid survival strategy. It is called lack of coordination and it is always a good reason for the most simple plans to fail.

I only apologise from my part if the story does not reveal the above in every detail.

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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:13 pm

I was asking a few questions earlier in a private chat but it was pointed out to me that I should ask my questions here in the forum.

So, I was looking through the races and I noticed that there are 10 races that have gotten Lunacy and I wondered why we only ever see the Great Elder Ones rage in the game and additionally, what causes them to distinguish between friend and enemy while in their rage. Supposedly they go bananas completely, why not kill their own brothers and sisters?

Looking at the races and Lunacy led me to look a bit on the Regeneration part and that led me to another question. I saw that a race has Regeneration with the following comment:

"Regeneration: They can heal every wound or injury. Cold forged iron can stop this process though. (+4)"

What exactly is cold forged iron? It exists in our world but apparently it is quite a feat to manage to work with and is considered extremely hard to achieve iron-forging in cold/moderate temperature. Considering that the world we are playing in is far less technologically advanced than the world we are playing in, how is that a negative that was accepted to a race? Isn't that partially equal as saying that a race has Regeneration but Nuclear Fusion stops it from healing, in the way that it is not something that the fantasy world inhabitants are likely to have achieved?

Additionally, during the last week, my Seuralvaroths in the south were attacked. I need a small clarification on that. I understand that during their lunacy period, the Great Elder Ones don't really pick their foe and just desire to kill. Now, the Seuralvaroths are tiny creatures, about 10cm long in a vast area, covered with trees and water. I find it an interesting thing that the Great Elder Ones, creatures that while they are absolutely massive, they do not have any specific senses then it comes to life-sensing or even exceptional sight, would noticed that there are such tiny creatures living under the leaves and branches of the trees that they overshadow, and go to the extent of attacking them. Can I get a clarification on this?

Thanks!
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Charon on Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:09 pm

Some Lunacies are less severe in consequeces that others by design or common sense. Some are boozing, some are fornicating and some are in a rampage. On the other hand there is a difference between one of your Seuralvaroths on a rampage and a Great Elder One Boozing. As we already mentioned the most impoetant events are mentioned in the story, this means events that shift the daily routine and should point out to you that measures must be taken.

It was never stated or even implied that the Great Elder Ones tell friend from fie doring their lunacy. In fact saveral of their casualties are because they attack each other.

Cold Forged Iron is what the term implies according to folklore, Iron shaped and tempered without the heat of fire. Cold Forging is a quite famous techniquet in folklore and it is expected by the races of this world are making progress towards metallurgy. Your equivalencies are over exaggerating! All of the regeneration weeknesses are equally easy or hard to find and put into practical use. Moreover the casualties that are suffered by races with regeneration without mentioning the weeknesses proves that it mekes them not invulnerable.

As for the attack during lunacy. The Great Elder Ones are guided by madness to head on a location and harm some creature no matter what as per the trait and the description. Your race on the other hand had no clue about the case and they try to distract and divert the huge foe. Moreover some of them were under the guise of a different race and size, si they are noticeable. When a creature such as the Great Elder one is on a rampage to find it's target, I find it very difficult to accept that a tiny snake can outmanuver such a juggernaut and withstand a trample or the fall of debris.

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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:00 am

Charon wrote:It was never stated or even implied that the Great Elder Ones tell friend from fie doring their lunacy. In fact saveral of their casualties are because they attack each other.

Nor was it stated that they don't. How much are we to assume from what remains unwritten?

Charon wrote:Cold Forging is a quite famous techniquet in folklore and it is expected by the races of this world are making progress towards metallurgy. Your equivalencies are over exaggerating! All of the regeneration weeknesses are equally easy or hard to find and put into practical use.

Coldforged iron, that as you say requires a race to have done some progress in metallurgy, is equally easy found as ex. fire, ice, acid, ice, which is by far the vast majority of the other inhibitors of regenerations?

Charon wrote:Your race on the other hand had no clue about the case and they try to distract and divert the huge foe.

Divert from what?

Charon wrote:When a creature such as the Great Elder one is on a rampage to find it's target, I find it very difficult to accept that a tiny snake can outmanuver such a juggernaut and withstand a trample or the fall of debris.

Oh, I am in not doubt that they wouldn't outmanoeuvre the Great Elder Ones. Allow me to explain my concerns in a different way.

Time for some fun math.

The Seuralvaroths are 10cm. The Great Elder Ones are described as colossal, which if we are to take Pathfinder as an example, are described to be at least 20m tall. That means, that the average Seuralvaroth, is about  200 times smaller than the average Great Elder One.
In human terms, that would mean that assuming you are about 170cm tall, you'd be able to find a group of creatures, slightly larger than half a centimeter each in a large area covered in bushes and branches, without any indication where they are. How large is a square on the map?

Apparently, a square is 50x50km, which scaled down in our example, means that a 170cm tall person, can realistically find 2000 creatures that are under half a centimeter long, under branches and leaves, in an area of approx 4.4x4.4km, or almost 20 000 square meters.

To the rest of the players: I have raised a number of questions that concerned me, questions that I believe(d) would improve the flow of the game. Does nobody else have any concerns? As I understood from the very beginning of the game, it was explained to us that this game is in a way in it's beta testing phase and errors might occur, errors that might need the game to be "patched". However, due to the obvious infallibility of the game, I find it hard to see that any change might occur.

I would love to hear your thoughts, who knows, perhaps I am wrong in all this.


Last edited by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:02 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Orabelle on Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:59 am

I agree only on the last part where the seuralvaroths are quite small to be attacked.
I also agree though that there will be casualties cause many will be trampled by the Elders
also this "one step" could destroy their settlement.
So less casualties and mostly a negative effect is more reasonable.
If the race was targeted on the other hand, we all have punished the hordes of ants in our kitchem

On the regeneration fact, cold iron is not TOO advanced even though for most of the races , it will be very hard to advance fast enough on that level of metallurgy

I was told too that some minor stories will not be mentioned but progress will be seen in time or on map.

( I am glad for your questions since many of us have exactly the same concerns )

I wish to add one more question:
What is the travel speed of a tiny - medium and Large race? Do wings effect on the distance?
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:51 am

Unrelated question - It is stated that when we attempt to indoctrinate, we will get a percentage of the followers we are targetting. Can we overshoot that to aim for a higher success rate?

Example:

A race has 2000 followers. Spending 10 points will get between 40% and 100% of those 2000.
Can we spend 15 points to have a 40% to 100% (theoretical) chance of getting 3000 followers? (clearly, max 2000)
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Chloris on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:14 am

Τhat is something I would like to know as well. Although... if , for example, both of us target the Skalds and spend 15 or 20 points just to be sure... neither of us is getting 100% since both of us bid it...
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:16 am

Or the person who posted it first gets it?
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Chloris on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:25 am

I seriously doubt it... truth is I don;t really mind not taking the whole race, or at least it's not my main concern... The thing that pains me most, is that I will pay for the whole lot... I'd rather get what I pay for of pay for what I get. I'm not complaining since I bid with full knowledge of the mechanics, but since you raised the issue, I though I'd share it.
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:01 pm

Edited the previous post with area, on the scaled down example I was giving.
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Charon on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:24 pm

Nor was it stated that they don't. How much are we to assume from what remains unwritten?

We all assume that all races are indulging in their daily habits. The information release is discussed among the moderators in order to cover your issues to the best possible way.

Coldforged iron, that as you say requires a race to have done some progress in metallurgy, is equally easy found as ex. fire, ice, acid, ice, which is by far the vast majority of the other inhibitors of regenerations?

It is mentioned already that some races have a dispute concerning metals... isn't that an indication that metallurgy is in progress? As mentioned there all regeneration weaknesses are equally easy or hard to be found and put into practical use. Silver and Cold Forged Iron are not easy to be found but it is easier to use, maintain and even weaponize in comparison with fire, ice, acid, ice which are damaging elements to most of the races. Can you imagine someone going into battle holding two buckets of acid?

Divert from what?

My texting on my smartphone is not perfect. The initial phrase in my mind was that Seuralvaroths had no idea about the Great Elder Ones or their state of mind during the lunacy. So they tried to distract the Great Elder Ones and redirect them to other victims.

Time for some fun math.

Fun Math and Fun Logic
There is a race 10cm tall with serpentine movement and physically below average for it's size, assumes the shape alone of an approximately 170cm (17 times taller) walking on two legs. What math about body mass and the power of reasoning would suggest that the little shape sifter stands no chance to wield such a body, not to mention walk. However this is fantasy and in order for this to work we turn a blind eye to physics 101, biology 101, chemistry 101 etc.

Up to your example, it is reasonable and I call it accurate if it's case was 100% true.


"...a large area covered in bushes and branches, without any indication where they are."

Large area, indeed, covered in bushes and branches with no doubt... during it's creation. 12.000 human sized people were sheltered for almost 6 months in that area. Settlements were made, land was cleared and huts were made. Seuralvaroths were clearly blending in the communities. Finally I am wondering how certain is the speculation that the Great Elder Ones had no indication where these tiny creatures are located?

What is the travel speed of a tiny - medium and Large race? Do wings effect on the distance?

We assume that a medium race can travel, as a population in great numbers, 4 tiles of normal terrain in normal weather and with no events hindering their movement (this movement take into account that there are children and elders, the race should pack their households, they always look for a safe shelter and they make regular long stops to rest. Flight and other traits modify this number by a tile or two. Travelling Squads and Mobilised Units travel faster (see conditions table).

Can we overshoot that to aim for a higher success rate?

No! The cost derives from the number of mortals you try to influence. The outcome rates are not definitive (40-100 is the worst and best case scenarios). Individually the final rate of success is depending on which god tries to influence which race, their condition and their relationship with their god. The released races have no ties with any other god, so assume that your bet is more like 60-100% of your bid.

Τhat is something I would like to know as well. Although... if , for example, both of us target the Skalds and spend 15 or 20 points just to be sure... neither of us is getting 100% since both of us bid it...

Or the person who posted it first gets it?

First post takes all is a definite NO! Not every player has the luxury to be 24/7 logged in to post an order. Every Divine Conflict order is resolved at the end of the round and the results will be taking effect on the following round. In case that some of you target the same mortals you will have to share the pie.

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Re: Questions with love

Post by Nyeroth on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:47 pm

Charon wrote:Silver and Cold Forged Iron are not easy to be found but it is easier to use, maintain and even weaponize in comparison with fire, ice, acid, ice which are damaging elements to most of the races. Can you imagine someone going into battle holding two buckets of acid?

No but I can easily imagine someone dipping the tip of a simple arrow into acid, or lighting it on fire to cause some serious damage. You are talking about weaponizing, carrying two buckets of acid to war barely qualifies as a weapon.

Charon wrote:However this is fantasy and in order for this to work we turn a blind eye to physics 101, biology 101, chemistry 101 etc.

Yeah, we tend to turn a blind eye to a lot in this fantasy world. Where do you draw the line or how much we ignore? Does shape changing allow a race to shape change to the size of a planet? Why not? What are the restrictions?
Also, my example had absolutely nothing to do with physics, biology or anything else - it was pure statistics. We need to have a basis, a ground on where we stand and can assume things otherwise nothing we do, nothing we plan, nothing we write has any meaning.

Charon wrote:Finally I am wondering how certain is the speculation that the Great Elder Ones had no indication where these tiny creatures are located?

Knowing for certain where to find a tiny race in an area of 50x50km is a very different thing - unless they had had some reconnaissance which I am not aware of. Needless to say, IF that is the care they I am wrong in this and they have every logical way to be there.

Charon wrote:In case that some of you target the same mortals you will have to share the pie.

And do we get the "change" back from our spent points then?
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Chloris on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:57 pm

No babe, you ain't getting no change... you paid the effort of indoctrination. Not the result. The divine power symbolizes the effort you've made. 

Fathers, thank you for the answers
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Caranthir on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:11 pm

Although your statement is correct, please let the mods answer in this questions and especially Charon who is the responsible for matters like this to avoid any misunderstandings.
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Re: Questions with love

Post by Chloris on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:37 pm

ο ο οκ silent
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Re: Questions with love

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